Tamils are one among the most ancient civilizations of the world. In the history of the world, Tamil population are the few among the world communities which named it’s people with title of their own language. For example the names like ‘Tamilarasi’, ‘Tamilselvan’, ‘Tamilmani’, ‘Tamilvendhan’ carries the title of the language. This indicates their immense love towards their language and culture. But this trend is not practiced anymore by the Tamils in India. Sadly, Tamils are gradually and steadily losing their identity. This is very evident if we make a research into the names of the people belonging to Tamil Nadu. Yes, this article is all about today’s trend in the names of the wide Tamil community.
I personally made a venture in interviewing a few Tamils in the urban areas. The results were just shocking when I came to know that out of 20 people I interviewed, none of them were carrying Tamil names. One of the couple I interviewed was from Erode. They recently gave birth to a girl baby and they named the girl as ‘Shamitha’. The first question I asked them was ‘who named the baby?’ Reply was immediate. They said that an astrologer named the baby. Second question I asked was, ‘do you know the meaning of this name and from which language this name was originated?’. The couple admitted that they don’t know the meaning and they are not really bothered to know that.
When I interviewed few more families, more or less I received the same reply. Hardly people realize that they are losing their identity. Names are the real identity of a community. A name can easily tell you from where you are coming. The names give a strong feeling of togetherness and integrity. It is an identity of a civilization, generation and clan. Names are not merely meant for calling. It promotes the essence of meaning which it carries along with. When I was working as a receptionist in a hotel in London, an American businessman saw my name badge which read ‘Raj Palaniswamy’. He immediately recognized that I was a Tamil and spoke to me in Tamil. We all know that ‘Palaniswamy’ is a name kept only by Tamils. If I myself happen to come across the names like ‘Senthil’, ‘Murugan,’ or ‘Sunderapandiyan’, I will certainly speak to them in Tamil without even asking them whether they are Tamil or not. That is to say that the names are the real address or identity for a person. I have never seen a North Indian or a person belonging to any other state other than Tamil Nadu having a Tamil name. But I wonder why Tamils have a fascination to have Hindi or Sanskrit names to their sons and daughters.
Well, this is not the case only in the urban areas. Even in the villages, Tamils are fancied to have non-Tamil names. I was taken aback when I came to know that my distant relatives in a village named their daughter as ‘Monica’. This name was neither a Hindi nor a Sanskrit name. They went a step ahead in having a European name. Another city couple named their daughter as ‘Chaya Sree’. Again this couple blinked when I asked about the meaning for the name. Ironically most of the parents have Tamil names like ‘Arivazhagan, ‘Poongkodi’, Muniappan or ‘Kalaiselvi’. But their sons and daughters have names like ‘Rahul’, ‘Sachin’, ‘Rohit’, ‘Sanjana’, ‘Akshay’, ‘Abishek’ or ‘Diya’ . These parents rarely know the meaning of these names. Even if they knew the meaning, they could rarely speak the language from which these names originated. Chinese and Japanese still they stick on to their indigenous names no matter how much they are exposed to fashion and modernism. Then why Tamils don’t stick on to their names?
If this trend continues, in another 20 years, we cannot find a single Tamil name inside the Tamil families. For name sake, people of Tamil Nadu can claim to be Tamils, but in reality they will be losing their identity in this global village. Late Czech scholar Kamil Zvebil said “There is no doubt that the culture of the Tamils belongs to the great and immortal treasures of the world’s civilisation’ . Further he adds that the Tamils are only surviving classical civilization on earth. But this classical civilization is slowing getting diluted in the waters of Indian Ocean. Yes they are diluted by the adverse effects of North Indians flooding into the state and mingling with the Tamil society. However, the losers are not North Indians as they stick to their names, but Tamils are indeed losing their identity.
Now I am wondering about the cause. What made Tamils to think that their Tamil names are not good enough to suit their kids? One thing I realized that most of them, who have non-Tamil names for their kids, have hardly read Tamil literature or Tamil history. In this post-modern society, Tamils have least time in researching about their own culture and language. This led to the decline of Tamil names inside Tamil Nadu. For example T.Rajendran, a prominent personality of Tamil Nadu named his son as Silambarasan as opposed to actor Vijay who named his son as Sanjay. This was probably because T. Rajendran is a person who has read Tamil literature in-depth and has awareness about the history and culture of Tamils. Obviously actor Vijay would not have gone through Tamil literature or history and the end result was naming his son with a Sanskrit name.
In a contrast, my non –Tamil friend belonging to this generation who is a follower of a Tamil Saint Vallalar, named his boy baby as ‘Thooyavan’ which means ‘Man of Purity’. I asked him why he was not fascinated by Hindi names. He immediately replied that he wanted to his son to have a name with divine meaning and power of pure Tamil language. This was mainly because my friend was well versed in Thirukkural and Thiruvarutpa. To some extent, unlike the Western society, the knowledge of literature and history plays an important role in naming the kids. I feel that Tamils are lacking this knowledge and are not taking enough steps to know about the unique qualities of their own language and culture. This makes them lose pride in having Tamil names. Instead they take pride in having names of foreign origin.
Though this situation in Tamil Nadu is disappointing, I was relieved by a good news announced by the TN government. It said that the TN government would give one gold coin free per couple who names their child with a proper Tamil name. At least in the government hospitals, we could expect people to name their progeny in Tamil language for the sake of gold coin. Another achievement can be attributed to the TV channels like Makkal TV which continuously supports the revival of Tamil language. It holds Tamil language competition to give away gold coins if somebody wins. Also it constantly (every day) inform people about new Tamil names with meaning therefore encouraging Tamil people to name their kids in Tamil language. I end up with a small note. A scholar quoted that a nation can easily be defeated and captured without weapons, if the language of the nation is destroyed. Though language destruction is at the rapid pace in Tamil Nadu, but my concern is with names of the Tamils who have already lost their identity as Tamils. This is a wake-up call for all Tamils around the world. If Tamils don’t name their kids in their language, then who else would name their kids in Tamil? This beautiful Tamil language has got immense meaning and glory within itself. Tamils don’t need to borrow a foreign language for naming their kids.
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38 Comments
“Though language destruction is at the rapid pace in Tamil Nadu, ”
- I hear this often. I agree that it is shameful that Tamils are naming their children diya, sachin, nikhil, etc. But how do you say language destruction is at rapid pace? btw, I use the name displayed for anonymity in the internet.
I don’t agree that names are an indication of identity. It is just a name. It doesn’t tell you what kind of a person you are. A name like “Ambedkar Raj” or “Stalin” is not tamil, but we are ok with it, aren’t we?
Just because of a name like “Thooyavan” doesn’t guarantee that the guy would be a saint.
This is a cyclic process.
The political and economic status of Tamil Nadu and the measure of interaction with other cultures influence everyday life of Tamils. Naming a child has become a fashion or a part of mixed civilisation of the present time. The past and the future need not be the same.
Ever since Tamils attained a culture of saying ‘ Yaadum Oore ” they were not interested in being Tamil alone. The feeling of ” being a Tamil” is not categorically recorded by Tamils for many centuries. The present trend of Tamil nationalism is a copy of nationalist ideologies derived from Europe.
A revival of Tamil language through Bakthi especially by Alwars happened a thousand years before. In the last century we saw a revival of Tamil prose in pure and simple Tamil free from sanskrit by Maraimalai adigal and Thiru Vi Ka. We will see a revival in future too.
This well written article itself is an indication that the revival is on already.
No need to worry so much.
I named my sons Alagan, Thuyavan and Nambi. My brother in law named his daughter as Diya. He was in favour of a Tamil Name. His wife could not understand that.
So many books should have been written at the time of Valluvar. Only Thirukkural could survive. Similarly there are dedicated people who pass Tamil to next generation without any harm. Rest of the people just eat, grow old and die although they are in majority and they name their children misled by pseudo elites. The anti Tamil elements mixed with our population will say ” what is in a name?” but will always name their children in Sankrit only. These elements along with their killer saint mentors are now well exposed and their influence shall wane away shortly
malar
I do not agree with deepak on his view of separating name from identity. The name itself is a way for identity only.
But I agree with Deepak that a name could not guarantee a character.
For example many fraudulent god men involved in rape murder smuggling etc have very good names in Sanskrit with good meaning.
malar.
There is lot more to identity than names..
A Parsi businessman is still considered a honest and fair businessman..A person you can trust your money with. Hence the better reputation TCS has in contracts compared to other cos.
A Sikh is many a times more risk taking and braver than other people running shops in Ghettos in US where even US born don’t dare to visit..
A Gujaratis enterprise, hard work and helping family is above and beyond other cultures..
So what does Tamil identity represent today(not history, civilization etc)..What does a unique tamil name tell to others, other than a love for the language or words..Just wondering..
If there is nothing differentiates them from others and gives coolness/pride to parents, we can understand why many name their children in names which makes them feel positive/cool..We cant expect everyone to read the past to pick a name for their children in present..
Names are a mark of identity. Even though my name is in Sanskrit not many people think that it is Sanskrit as it has been used mainly by Tamils for several hundred years. Even the north Indians I meet don’t know to pronounce it properly or know its meaning. Having pure Tamil names or names that are used exclusive to Tamils does help in identifying ourselves. When I said my name to a north Indian friend’s mom who has settled in the UK, she immediately asked me ‘are you Madrasi?’. Even when I said ‘yes’ she corrected herself and asked whether I am a South Indian. I didn’t feel anything bad that she called me a ‘Madrasi’ because I am indeed a ‘Madrasi’ as I am from TN. But later I came to know that many South Indians from outside TN feel bad about it and protest that the term is derogatory. I think their motivation to term it as derogatory is because they don’t want to tie their identity with TN. Very funny indeed.
Shaan,
It is not funny matter to reject as it is smarter in their perspective..If someone does not have something to differentiate his values and lifestyle in a positive manner from the rest, he does not have any incentive to identify his names to that ethnic group or even intentionally reject any identification with their group..
It is not abt names is my point..It is about uniqueness, positive attitudes and values associated with a group..When they are lacking, individuals behaviors are going to be towards something that offers them that..
Another fact to think about is last names. The Gujarathis, Parsis, Sikh, etc mentioned by Ronin are identified not by their first name but by their last names. All over India last names are specific to a caste or religion. In TN too it used to roughly indicate one’s caste. But now everybody has their last names as their father’s first name. This leads to many difficulties. For example my last name is my father’s first name, and my father’s last name is my first name because my name is actually his father’s first name. And what would be my wife’s last name when I am married? Will it be my first name or last name? Generally all over the world wife’s last name is her husband’s last name because last name is actually the family name. But in TN there is confusion in this too. Some women have their husband’s first name as their last name while some have their husband’s last name as their last name. Tamils settled outside TN long ago continue to use caste names. For example, Shiv Nadar. I really don’t know whether using the traditional ‘Pandiyan’ or ‘Pillai’ is casteist because these kind of names though they may roughly indicate one’s caste does not always point to the caste exactly as Iyer or Iyengar. Pandiyan may simply be a name or may indicate one’s caste. Similarly Pillai is used by many castes belonging to several categories in TN and also by some Malayalees. The truth is that though we hesitate to use the traditionally used last names as they indicate castes, it does not help much in integrating the society as we continue to see casteist violence and barring of temple entry to specific sections. Though belonging to the same caste people refuse to accept their sons or daughters marrying a person from a different sub-caste. On the other hand I have seen people in the north more open to their sons/daughters marrying a person from a different caste but belonging to the same socio-economic level.
@ronin, that comment was not a reply to your comment. However you are right in saying that it is not altogether with names or identity. Identity may help you or hurt you. For example, here in the UK a Tamil man from TN was killed by a Sri Lankan Tamil gang. Newspapers reported under the heading ‘Tooled up Tamil gangs’, ‘Violence of Tamil gangs revealed’, ‘Tamil gangs tackled from within’, etc. In fact before coming here I asked my friend who is also a Tamil and had been here, about safety in London. I asked him whether Pakistanis are dangerous as there were many reports of Pakistanis being involved in violence. But to my shock he said ‘Pakistanis are not a problem, but be careful with Sri Lankan Tamils and blacks’. He was right. I did see some Sri Lankan Tamil guys being injured in gang fight. In such a situation an Indian Tamil will prefer to identify himself as Indian rather than Tamil.
Shaan,
Sikhism was born out of and to solve the caste frustration in Hinduism and to defend sikhs from muslim invaders..And the rule “Singh” was made by the Guru to remove caste names from last names.
And Parsi’s dont have a concept of castes as far as I know. One uniqueness of Tamils is that they were amongst the first in India to step out of casteism..It is not surprising that gene research also indicates that casteism was a concept that was brought into tamils much later from later immigrants..
We can choose to have fixed last names anytime..and it necessarily need not be caste names..Many Telugus are dropping their caste names and choosing their village names for this reason..And Malayalees have house names and village names also..But this is not about first name vs last name, but do they want to have any tamil names? And why not..
I am not saying that we need to adopt caste name as last name. I am only saying that the so called caste name does not point to a particular caste always. When it comes to village names as part of one’s name, it was used by Tamils also. Even today in functions like engagement you could see that. They say ‘nellai krishnan avargalin magal selvi….’, etc. Telugus are not dropping and choosing village names as you said, they have always used village names like Tamils to identify them and they are continuing to use it. Malayalees also use village names but that does not mean that they don’t use caste names.
Though Guru Nanak tried to eliminate castes, caste exists in Sikhism too. Haven’t you heard about the Vienna Gurudwar killings? Even Sikh Dalits exist. Singh is not a caste name but it does indicate that the person is a Sikh (though Hindus too have the name) and apart from the name ‘Singh’ they include their caste name too(eg, jagjit singh arora). check this – http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/543916/Sikhism/253170/The-rejection-of-caste
People talk as though caste system is unique to Hinduism, but it exists in other religions in India like Christianity too.
Parsis are themselves considered as a caste thought they follow zoroastrianism. Check this link – http://www.bollywood.com/little-zizou-puts-parsis-comic-spotlight-after-30-years
And they have names like ‘mistry’ and ‘wala’.
“One uniqueness of Tamils is that they were amongst the first in India to step out of casteism”
- This is completely false. How many in TN marry outside their caste? Only in TN still Dalits are prevented entry into temples. This is what I was exactly pointing out. We have removed caste only from names and it thrives well in everything else.
“It is not surprising that gene research also indicates that casteism was a concept that was brought into tamils much later from later immigrants..”
- You need to substantiate this by giving the link to the genealogical study. I can give you a link to the recent genealogical study that has established that caste system was in existence all over India for thousands of years. Check this – http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Aryan-Dravidian-divide-a-myth-Study/articleshow/5053274.cms
It is a general practice that a person holds a name in his language. For a Keralite, Kannadiga or Telugu it is not a problem since their language does not stand by excluding Sanskrit. As I pointed out earlier naming patterns are not constant throughout the history of Tamil language. In future a trend may be developed to follow classical Tamil.
Concern about Pollution of a language can be expressed only for certain languages and fortunately or unfortunately Tamil is one among them. French people are known for retaining the purity of their language against English.
In the perspective of the freedom of individual, naming his children cannot be persuaded from outside. Only He or She should decide. That depends on their passion.
But we have to point out that parents ask an astrologer and these astrologers deliberately avoid Tamil names and suggest certain sounds / first letters alien to Tamil language. The people who hold self respect or esteem should not ask an astrologer to name children. The elites mislead the poor. A construction worker calls his son as “THINSU” . I got clarified that it was DINESH. Names such as Ramesh, Suresh, Vignesh, kamalesh etc cannot be naturally pronounced by ordinary Tamil people.
People behave like a herd. But giving incentives works as done in corporation hospitals. Name in Tamil and get a gold coin.
Recently after announcement of Tax benefits the Tamil film makers named their creations in Tamil. But Sanskrit too was considered Tamil. This confusion cannot be avoided. The English titles are gone now.
There are people who follow certain principles regarding language. For example poet Thamarai avoids using English in her lyrics.
MGR removed the caste names from the streets. For example Pachaiyappa Mudali street became Pachaiyappan street in overnight by the order of the Government throughout the state. That was a revolution gone uncelebrated.
We Tamil speakers cannot follow others since a family name will reinforce the caste system. Nowadays people have left their caste names which is an encouraging sign. I prefer Dinesh even if it is not in Tamil rather than a Shiv Nadar or a Mani Shankar Ayyar or Andith Thevar.
The first name last name concepts are not necessary for Tamils.
why didn’t you approve my comment?
Tamil names aren’t as beautiful as Sanskrit/Prakrit names. That’s the bottom line.
Shaan I think your comment went into spam as it had links..Now its ok..
Parsis are not considered a caste….the link you provided was some bloggers making a loose comment about a movie..They have to strictly marry within the community else earlier they will be debarred from community..
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/
Yes Sikhism has lost its original tenet and does not follow the Guru’s writing to a T. But the idea of naming everyone as Singh by the Guru was to remove their caste identities and be a united religion.
I agree that even Christians and Muslims in India have castes..Aryan Dravidian words are politicized and have lost meanings. but researchers indicate that there were multiple immigration into India. Most research indicates multiple races mixed to form Indians or that Dravidian languages or different from other languages. ..I will post relevant links from an American university soon about solidification of caste with male based immigration later as there were not enough x chromosome indicators..I am not able to find it..
But some Indian research on it are
1. Basu A., Mukherjee N., Roy S., Sengupta S., Banerjee S.,
Chakraborty M. et al. 2003 Ethnic India: A genomic view, with
special reference to peopling and structure. Genomic Res. 13,
2277–2290.
2. http://www.ias.ac.in/jgenet/Vol87No2/175.pdf
“The present study shows that these contemporary caste populations
of Tamil Nadu are confounded by assimilation of subsequent
immigrants in varying degrees of admixture before
the caste system became too rigid.”
Shan,
Originally all Kamma naidus, reddies and gowds went by there caste names in AP. Now many of children have their village names. So there has been some change.
Also it is subjective if TN was amongst the first in India to step out of casteism..It has not stepped out completely and not sure when it will..But you do understand that barring the cities, northern India such as UP, Bihar, MP and Haryana every year we see killings due to caste related marriages..Again it is subjective..but dont you agree casteism is lot more in the BIMAR states than in TN..
@Ronin, I said “Parsis are themselves considered as a caste”. I did not say Parsis have caste within themselves. Parsis by the process of assimilation began to express themselves as a caste and were considered a caste by other Hindus.
Parsi Panchayat Case 1909
“…Agreeing with the judgment, Beaman J. said that the word “Parsi” had a caste and not a religious meaning….” Check this – http://tinyurl.com/ykbxvd6
“…before the caste system became too rigid” – This does not say that there was no caste system, only says that castes were more fluid in the past and then they became rigid. This is not very different from the study I quoted which says “The genetics proves that castes grew directly out of tribe-like organizations during the formation of the Indian society”.
I agree casteist violence is more in northern states but their classification of caste is broad while in TN the classification is narrow due to countless subcastes. For example my north Indian friend and his wife are from different castes though both belong to the baniya community. They had no problem in getting married while in TN people don’t accept even if the person is from the same caste but different subcaste.
“but their classification of caste is broad while in TN the classification is narrow due to countless subcastes”
@Shaan, I am not arguing abt castes or subcastes..We both know what am saying..Is casteism higher in BIMAR states or not compared to TN. Did the social impact of castes reduce in TN or these states first..If we disagree, we disagree.
“Parsi are considered a caste by other Hindus” Zorashtrianism has their own holy books, prayers and temples…We can have interreligious marriages but we cant deny their books, god, religion or history or ethnic origins or culture, just because it is convenient..A parsee was rejected by their religous council if he married a Hindu or a muslim or a christian..Because of this there numbers were falling a lot..Now they are more relaxed with their laws..There is a famous Indian author and Novel about modern Paris..”Rohinton Mistry” which I recommend..Which Indian Hindu caste calls themselves Yezad, Murad or Jehangir..
The caste research article says that possibly was more gene homogenity before castes solidified with external exposure..It does not say they existed or did not..It is up to us to infer..And if there were homogenity in genes earlier it appears castes were not practically relevant earlier..No one can go back to find the truth..But as I said this is what the gene researchers are indicating about caste pools of TN..
Dear Niraj,
Your comment is not relevent. We can only say that a girl is pretty, but we cannot say that a man is pretty or beautiful. Man is a man and rose is a rose. Can you compare an apple with an orange? Same way you are comparing. Tamil is a masculine language and Sanskrit / Prakrit is a feminine language. This was attested my many scholars in the past. My point is, it is just the ignorance among Tamil people which made them think that Tamil names are not good enough for their kids.
What has emerged from these posts reflects my own experience in the Sri Lankan Tamil community. The bottom line as far as I see it is tamils accross the globe are a deeply divided people and many will use any characteristic whether that is skin tone, caste, nationality, or occupation to try to demonstrate superiority over their fellow tamil. This of course is a delusion but is something that I have found deeply rooted in the psyche of many tamils. It is a sad reality that will ultimately result in the loss of our cohesiveness as a people and the downfall of our culture outside Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka. Just compare our community with that of the Gujaratis, Pakistanis or even just about any north indian community you care to mention and you see the difference starkly. The number of our children who can converse in tamil, attend temple or take any pride in our beautiful two thousand year old culture is alarming.
I remember a time in the not too distant past when Sri Lankan tamils especially in the UK and Malaysia proudly distinguished themselves from their indian bretherin a mark of percieved superiority. As were are all aware this has changed and it now the indian Tamils who wish to distinguish themselves from Sri Lankan tamils. This has become especially apparrent in recent trips to the US and Canada where the name of Sri Lankan tamils has become associated with gang violence and all manner of social ills. Take Canada for example, what many fail to realise is that Sri Lankan Tamils arrived in the country as political refugees and are drawn from every social stratum unlike Indian tamil immigration to that country which by and large has been a filtered group of mainly professionals. The former has had to face big challenges in terms of emploment, language, and the scars of the political conflict back home. This division and prejudice is a truly sad state of affairs and one which in my opinion carries a bleak prognosis unless attittudes change.
@siva
It is not superiority complex. Any average person would always tend to dissociate himself from people of questionable character. This is not restricted to Tamils. This is universal.
I have spent hours explaining the Sri Lankan problem to my north Indian friends. I spend hours commenting on people’s blogs about it. It is not just me, many ordinary TN Tamils do feel bad about the state of Sri Lankan Tamils. This Tamil man if he was killed by a Pakistani/Chinese gang it would have hit the national headlines and if he was killed by a Sinhalese gang it would have hit the TN headlines. But since it was a Tamil gang, the news was muted. This should explain our understanding towards our Lankan brethren.
It is true that the minds of these people are scarred due to the war. But shouldn’t they be thankful towards the countries which gave them refuge and respect the laws? Is it not the responsibility of the larger Tamil community to educate and counsel them? Is Eelam possible when we are not able to do even this? I saw many comments in newspapers saying that these people would have done the same thing in Sri Lanka and so were ‘kicked out’. Thankfully those were few and many people do understand that one cannot judge a community by the actions of a few.
Malarthamil,
>>Similarly there are dedicated people who pass Tamil to next generation without any harm. Rest of the people just eat, grow old and die although they are in majority and they name their children misled by pseudo elites.
I do not think, it is entirely true. Harm or no harm depends on the number of Tamil-lovers to that of Tamil-bashers among Tamils. I can show several counter examples from the past and the present: Marathi and Gujurathi languages, which are supposed to have dravidian substratum, meaning: those people earlier spoke dravidian and had progressively replaced it with indo-aryan. Consider the amount of sanskritization in Kannada, Telugu, and Malayalam. Living examples are NE states where English is fast replacing local languages and the very many creoles of Caribbean and the Spanish language of Central and South America. Complacency will leave us severely punished. Consider the ultra-minuscule brahmin minority and their success in sustaining and imposing Sanskrit on all the others in the sub-continent. Compare it with the very many other central asian hordes which entered India and lost their identity. This happens because, the whole brahmin community fanatically adheres to its identity and has fundamentalist level of loyalty to the Sanskrit in detriment to other languages. No revolt from within or outside is countenanced and is mercilessly destroyed. There hold is so much so that people from all other southern states (Kerala, Karnataka and AP) even now think that there language evolved from Sanskrit!
Ronin, I do not think issues are as simple as you make out to be.
>> If there is nothing differentiates them from others and gives coolness/pride to parents, we can understand why many name their children in names which makes them feel positive/cool..
This is endemic to the caste-ridden and elite-driven culture of India, where more Sanskritness is considered to be virtue because of the higher status that it imparts to the beholder (whereas in reality ones level is already decided by birth). Whole lower strata of our country have this enslaved mentality and tamils are no exception (despite one century of self-respect movements). In fact Tamils are the ONLY NATION in South Asia who can proudly proclaim an ancient and long recorded independent culture which is devoid of the most of the invidious influences of Sanskritic culture. I do not think that it can get any cooler than this attribute in our country for a given geography (of course I am ignoring medieval and post-medieval inventions/introductions such as Sikh nation).
>> We cant expect everyone to read the past to pick a name for their children in present..
Then you are doomed to remain ignorant and keep repeating past mistakes over and over again until ultimately loose the battle and hope for survival only through subsuming in the dominant trend. Keeping Hindi/Sanskrit names for kids is only symptom of this lacking in self-respect and/or ignorance of one’s own past.
@Ramesh,
“I do not think that it can get any cooler than this attribute in our country for a given geography “..
I am glad you think that..But I don’t think many think it is cool enough is my point..So if they dont think it is cool or proud, obviously they are motivated to names which is more cooler or prouder..
“Then you are doomed to remain ignorant and keep repeating past mistakes over and over again until ultimately loose the battle and hope for survival only through subsuming in the dominant trend. Keeping Hindi/Sanskrit names for kids is only symptom of this lacking in self-respect and/or ignorance of one’s own past.”
That is an harsh indictment abt ignorance..But seems like most dont seem to care..My point is if you don’t develop a sense of pride through those living and current achievements, you cant expect to retain pride..
@Ramesh, It is true that many Tamils are passionate about their language. For example in the US I noticed many Tamil women forming a group and teaching Tamil to their children by holding special classes in temples. Marathi and Gujarathi languages are not evolved from Tamil as you claim. They are evolved from Prakrit. In fact Marathi was called as Maharashtri Prakrit in olden days. It has absorbed many words from Kannada which in turn has evolved from old Tamil (kannada people prefer to call old Tamil as Dravidian). The presence of Dravidian features itself does not indicate that Sanksrit is evolved from Tamil. In fact even Tamil has many Sanskrit words but that does not mean that Tamil is evolved from Sanskrit. Nowadays all Telugus, Kannada and Malayalis know that their language is Dravidian. The confusion was in the last century due to some Brahmin grammarians. Brahmins holding up Sanskrit high happened in relatively recent times and not in the past. In fact Sanskrit was not a spoken language at any time for these people to impose Sanskrit on others. Prakrits were the spoken languages. Today the threat to Tamil is not from Sanskrit but from mixing English in Tamil. Sentences like ‘help pannunga’, ‘mix pannavaa’, ‘think panni’ should be avoided.
@Shaan,
There is clearly an attempt to generate a pan-indian identity..And there are enough cultural threads across India to rightfully claim that…But what is worrisome is denial of science/identity in the name of pride or majority views..This is threatening and destroying science, which is only a harbinger or another form of denial of individual rights/voices..This is from the Indian Genome project
“and genetic admixture with the Indo–Europeans, retreated
to southern India, a hypothesis that has been supported by
mitochondrial DNA analyses (Basu et al. 2003). Our results
showing genetic heterogeneity among the Dravidian
speakers further supports the above hypothesis.”
“It is surprising that in spite of such a high levels of admixtures, the contemporary
ethnic groups of India still exhibit high levels of genetic
differentiation and substructuring.”
http://www.ias.ac.in/jgenet/Vol87No1/3.pdf
Btw this is a govt funded project..
@Ronin,
It has been proved time and again by consequent DNA research like the one you have referred that Dravidians/Ancestral South Indians and Indo-Europeans/Ancestral North Indians mixed in varying proportions to give rise to the current Indian population. Though the researchers in that paper have expressed ‘surprise’ that in spite of the mixing the current ethnic groups exhibit high genetic differentiation, recent research has uncovered that it is due to the practice of marrying withing group/caste. It is true that all Indians except the north east have common origin due to the genetic mix of ASI and ANI populations. But our cultures have evolved differently over time and imposing the culture of one group on others will only spoil the unity instead of increasing it.
Ronin,
>> But I don’t think many think it is cool enough is my point.
I am only contesting your claim of coolness not the fact that people aspire for more Sanskritised life-style. My claim is that it has more to do with conditioning of mind by upper castes and monumental ignorance of lower castes enforced by upper castes of our society. Tamils trying to imitate Sanskritic culture is equivalent to Uncle Toms of US: that is aspire for something who’s main purpose is to keep aspirer subservient.
>> But seems like most dont seem to care..
That seems to me as a circular justification for people’s action of self-damaging disregard for one’s own identity.
>> My point is if you don’t develop a sense of pride through those living and current achievements
Identity always comes from the past, where some amount of trust has been developed among the claimants due to shared commonalities. ‘Living and current achievements’ only gives some of the immediate purposes for the ‘identity’ but the direction and the larger goals are inevitably defined by one’s historical experience.
Secondly, sense of pride is not a god given natural process, it is a cultural attribute consciously cultivated by the elders/elites of the identity holders. Problem for us is that sanskritic elites have been morally corrupted and self-centered enough to perform such a function since there loyalty firmly lies elsewhere.
@Ramesh,
“Tamils trying to imitate Sanskritic culture is equivalent to Uncle Toms of US: that is aspire for something who’s main purpose is to keep aspirer subservient.”
What do you mean by ‘Sanskritic culture’. Please define it first. Giving Sanskrit names cannot be called as Sanskrit culture just like how giving English names cannot be called as English culture. It has to be avoided, that is agreed. But what is the Sanskrit culture that you are saying that Tamil people ‘aspire’?
Shan,
>> Marathi and Gujarathi languages are not evolved from Tamil as you claim.
I claimed no such thing. Secondly I did not mention Tamil anywhere as a progenitor. What I meant was that according to linguists who specialize in dravidian as well as Marathi and Gujurathi claim that there is an immediate substratum influence (not ad-stratum as you claim) of dravidian in these languages. In other words, speakers of Marathi and gujurathi language once spoke some form dravidian which they gradually REPLACED it with prakrit of ancient variety.
>> It has absorbed many words from Kannada which in turn has evolved from old Tamil (kannada people prefer to call old Tamil as Dravidian).
Literally speaking, old Tamil is old Tamil, why using a prakrit-sanskrit term of dravida makes it any different. If you are trying to imply that Tamil and malayalam speakers are not the only claimant to the old Tamils achievements and their history then what can I say? But if you mean a pan-dravidian call from kannadigas, then it is a new identity which needs to be forged with available cultural commanalities and common goals.
>> The presence of Dravidian features itself does not indicate that Sanksrit is evolved from Tamil.
Such claim can only be made by not so honest ‘indian’ minds
>> Nowadays all Telugus, Kannada and Malayalis know that their language is Dravidian.
I have met lot of telugus and kannadas but haven’t met anyone who knows this ‘dravidian’ aspect of heritage. I agree that at least educated mallus seem to appreciate these facts.
>> The confusion was in the last century due to some Brahmin grammarians.
Not one century but more than two centuries ago when asiatic society was formed. But my point is that Robert caldwal has shown distinctness of dravidian more than 150 years ago, can you answer why this bit failed to reach the masses yet?
>> Brahmins holding up Sanskrit high happened in relatively recent times and not in the past.
This is entirely a wishing than a fact. Are you trying to negate the underlying fabric of hinduism itself with such a claims. Hinduism as we know being practiced is rest on the sanskritic heirarchy and greatness of brahmins and sanskrit at the top with special privileges unless you attribute this also to colonial era?
>> Today the threat to Tamil is not from Sanskrit but from mixing English in Tamil. Sentences like ‘help pannunga’, ‘mix pannavaa’, ‘think panni’ should be avoided.
No questions on that. The point that I am belaboring here that English/Sanskrit are not the threat by themselves but the underlying Tamils’ mindset which makes these threats easily possible is the problem. What we need is a Tamil national ideology taking strong root and which creates a bulwark to protect the essence of Tamil identity without compromising on the flexibility needed to social progress. Do we need a strong Tamil national ideology is different discussion altogether.
@Shaan,
That was my point that there is scientific truth to the theory of Indo-Europeans and Dravidians……and that is being discredited by Hindutva researchers taking out bits and pieces of research to indicate that it is a concoction of germans or britishers..Although many Hindutva supporters believe in the Aryan theory in private is what I have learned when they assumed I was one of them..And I do believe that if you read the articles I posted together, you can come to fair conclusion that castes were not a norm in tamils and it was outside concept as we have more genetic homogenity amongst ourselves .
@Ramesh
excellent presentation of ideas..And we both look at same things but give diff weightage is my guess..Identity comes from past..If you consider everything until last sec as past..Some identify with the state they grow up in, Some with the city, some with their language, some with their religion, some with their college etc..You insist on one, while others might insist on others out of their own choice..(I have so many good friends who make diff choices..some I understand..some I cant appreciate..but they are all good people indeed)
I don’t deny the value system has changed since older times..Marco Polo’s visit into Pandyan Kingdom saw that they valued darkness as beauty and applied oil to look more darker..Cheran Kerala’s shift/mix into brahminism and Christianity was recent also with immigrants from up north and through sea..
About conditioning of minds, It is quite possible..I dont know why the Cholas and Cheras imported Sanskrit experts to work in temples from other countries, instead of locals..What were the motivation of kings to destroy Budhism and Jainism..No idea! Was it a choice out of need or lack of employees or out of lack of self-esteem..No idea..
You are saying pride is lacking due to external influence..am saying Tamils lack positive attitude towards their language..both the same things as pride is nothing but a positive attitude..I agree that other languages are doing a much better job of value communication..
But where I differ is how much can be generated out of present vs past..Every single man has a glorious and inglorious history(if you were to judge history)..Just for his gene to have survived this long..And judging history also has a self-defeating tendency unless we have hypocritical amnesia on past or manipulative about your past..
More importantly present habits and skills have more relevance in your survival..So people are going to be shifted to such culture which helps them in the present..And yes a brand value communication of Tamil is the need of the hour..But it is more relevant if it is based on current skills and habits..
I dont deny the importance of history as they give a sense of familiarity with your challenges..It helps me with my day to day life..But Tamils have been repeating history forever..
But English does not have such a glorious history but it is doing very very well..In the difference lies the point am saying..I dont deny many of your points but I believe the lack of stress on present is the key reason for failure..
அருமை.. ஆனால் தமிழில் எழுதி இருந்தால் மகிழ்ச்சி அடைதிருபோம்.. மாற்றத்தை நம்மில் இருந்து தொடங்குவோம்..
அருமை.. ஆனால் தமிழில் எழுதி இருந்தால் மகிழ்ச்சி அடைதிருபோம்.. மாற்றத்தை நம்மில் இருந்து தொடங்குவோம்..
நன்றி தோழரே,
இது உலக தமிழர்களுக்காக எழுதியது. புலம் பெயர்ந்தவர்கள் எல்லோருக்கும் தமிழ் படிக்க தெரியாது. அதனால் தான் ஆங்கிலத்தில் எழுதினோம்.
Ranjith,
Please let me know why Government of Srilanka has not renounced terrorism yet.
hi guys …i saw this article days after it was published…i am 22yrs old n am a tamil..nobody taught me to love tamil but i know its true worth,its rich vocabulary,its rich history,hav to mention tht its one of the oldest languages still living…n spoken by almost 77million ppl…do u think this wud die in a single day??no way…jus think abt it…we have survived our language long enough tht NOW u can’t kill it…the age of machines where we even try to save a dying species with the last set of pair…so don’t worry guys…nobody can kill our heritage…we will live on in the age of the internet…the very posts tht u’ve made so far is a testimony to this …so don’t worry about…its in the blood of the people who talk :)
ToXiC:
Happy to hear that.
I guess the question Ronin raised sometime back is the identity of Tamils. There was a time, Tamils was seen as sea faring, enterprising brave people. Now ? I guess we are branded as trust worthy, hard working folks to depend on – no more no less. For a proud Tamil, its a shame.
Hi Guys
I was just browsing when I hit upon this discussion.. I have something to add which may sound as a stupid analogy.I was looking for tamil nursery rhymes on the internet. That led me to the you tube channel.I searched for tamil nursery and to my surprise there were 980 results..And out of curiousity I searched for other regional languages like gujarati, hindi etc. With the exception of Hindi which had 220 results , the other were less than 29. So guys don’t panick yet. I think we are doing alright in that we are teaching our kids some rudimentary tamil.